Virgil with Tribel tech

[troutbrooke]

I disagree. Listen to Steve Smith on the first Vital Information and then the latest release. It could be two different drummers.

And I think that drummers ARE capable of sounding EXACTLY like another drummer if they want it bad enough. A drummer's groove and feel are also created by their EQUIPMENT, STICKS, RECORDING TECHNIQUE, etc....so to really duplicate or mimic another player, you would need to copy everything about them.

But then again, why bother? Arguments about groove and feel have been going on forever and will continue to do so.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 28, 2005 04:07 PM: Message edited by: drumming sort of person ]</font>

[Paraflam]

Sounds like another case of semantics. What is groove. If it IS in fact the personality of your beat. Then Groove is 100% right.
You can't change your genetic make up, you are who you are. Every player who has changed over the years still has that thing in their groove that makes them identifiable. That never goes away. Any drummer is proof of that.
Agreed.
If you think your groove is the consistancy of your beat. Well then of course. That can be improved on.

Groove's explanation makes sense not only spiritually, but physiologically. Think about it. It's you, it's who you are. How do you change that? I don't believe you can. It's what makes us who we are behind the kit. Our groove. A groove can't get deeper, only more accurate and consistant. The depth of the groove is how it makes you feel inside not how it matches up on the pro-tools grid. In 30 years Virgils groove will feel exactly the same.

You can improve on your body by exercising but you can't make red hair grow out of your head if you have brown hair.
You can be a nicer person and change your personality but you can't change your IQ or intellect level.
Makes sense to me. Admit it, sounds correct.

[Groovesmitty]

Sorry, that is the same old Steve Smith to my ears. Different drums different approach, same groove. Listen harder.
When a drummer like Steve Hass plays with Danilo Perez and then plays with Cher, he still posses the same groove. One recognizable groove. When Brian Blade toured with Seal, he still had the groove as he did with Joshua. Don't mistake style, interpretation, or approach, with someone's internal groove. That never changes.

Also your comment about sticks and gear. Completely not what I'm talking about. You're not understanding. Those things DO NOT change a persons groove. Groove and sound are not the same.
You have to look and listen deeper than that. If you put Gadd on Elvins drumset, he'll still groove like Gadd. Your statement makes sense if you're talking approach. But not feel and groove. That's simply not right. You can't change who you are by changing your clothes. And NO ONE has ever succeeded in copying another drummers feel and groove. It can't be done. You can always tell the difference.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 28, 2005 04:16 PM: Message edited by: Groovesmitty ]</font>

[troutbrooke]

Originally posted by Groovesmitty:
NO ONE has ever succeeded in copying another drummers feel and groove. It can't be done. You can always tell the difference.

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I don't know that anyone has actually TRIED to do this, nor would I understand WHY anyone would, but I still think that it is entirely possible.

And I still maintain that many a drummers' groove has changed over time. The only scientific way to acertain this would involve a very difficult set of comparisons with willing ang able participants involved over a period of time. Until such a test is conducted, we're just stating opinions on here. I don't need you to tell me to 'listen harder' or to imply that I am not listening as well as you.

[Flarobstix]

Benrad and groove. You guys nailed it. It may be semantics because I don't feel this is hard to grasp at all. I have those VI albums. His sound changed, his cymbal sound especially. His drums are different sizes(he added an 8" and the depths are different). His approach has changed because of his historical studies. But when I listen to the feel and groove. It's the same old Steve Smith. 2 different drummers? huh? I don't hear that at all.
I dig the change of clothes analogy. Tru dat! Let's put this to rest, if you can't hear it, ok. If you're stubborn enough to deny that all our favs have had the same feel and groove since their early years, well then. What can be said? Continue in fantasy land.
Groove is groove and I love mine.

[Flarobstix]

DSOP, HAHAHAHA! That test you mentioned does exist. Pick up some recordings. It's all there. Gadd with Chick in the 70s, Gadd with Edie Brickell in 04. Rick Marotta with Steely Dan Rick with Vinnie on the Gadd tribute. I can make a list 100pages long. Because all these guys feel the same. And they all have attained stronger and more mature time feels over the years. But they all groove exactly the same for 20 or more years. Tell me you can't hear that..I know you can. It seems so logical to me that I can't even begin to dig why another drummer would argue. The facts are everywhere.
Bottom line in relevance to this thread, Virgils groove will remain the same. And in 20 years you'll say, yes Rob you were right. :-)

<font color="#a62a2a"><font size="1">[ July 28, 2005 04:36 PM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font></font>

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 28, 2005 04:39 PM: Message edited by: Flarobstix ]</font>

[Mazzhole]

DSOP - I saw Hillary Jones with TT @ Johnny D's in Boston. Absolutley amazing.. she brought more of that "vibe" that people mentioned in the thread. We thought she was the drum tech because we were expecting to see Kirk. When she sat and started the first tune we felt like complete A**HOLES!! We ALL got schooled.. This was 93-94 era so we had no idea who she was.

I love when people talk about words like groove and feel. I have no idea how to explain either so I don't say anything at all. everything written makes sense to me.. both sides.. If I see peoples heads moving in the crowd or they're dancing... Mission accomplished!!!!!

I heard the same thing about the twirling and how he normally nials that stuff. Hey, everyone has bad days.. "Bad" is relative when talking about players of this caliber. VD is still the man in my eyes.. along with the "other V" mentioned!

[Flarobstix]

MOMK...you nailed it. If the audience is grooving, THERE YA GO.

[got_a_matchgrip]

The physiology point is total BS because one is NOT the same in this way as they were at age 8.

So THAT my fiends, is another case of obviously total BS spin. [img]wink.gif[/img]

If you can't understand this, then one must've failed grade school science [anat, biol].

HA! [img]wink.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I like that quote that another member here has, the 1 about trying to define groove is like trying to draw a sneeze...funny. Even tho groove prob can still be explained somewaht...but point made.

<font color="#a62a2a" size="1">[ July 28, 2005 08:25 PM: Message edited by: got_a_match_grip? ]</font>

[troutbrooke]

Virgil may just need more seat time with the band before they 'groove' better together. I must admit that I am not familiar with Virgil's playing at all, so I can't comment directly, but I have heard that he has a lot of chops. Kirk may groove better for Gary, but I for one don't enjoy Kirk's supposed groove. I think it has more to do with his sound though,...I'm not sure.